Wait, Mary Trump writes romance?
And E. Jean Carroll helps her? I was so perplexed, I had to get them on Zoom.
You’re reading Wait, Really? Want to get it in your inbox? Sign up below.
It’s been a busy few months in the legal lives of Mary L. Trump, the estranged niece of former President Trump, and E. Jean Carroll, the woman who accused him of rape.
Trump, who is author of the blockbuster tell-all about her family, saw a portion of a lawsuit brought against her by her uncle, for supposedly colluding with The New York Times to reveal his tax records as part of a “personal vendetta,” dismissed by a state judge.
Carroll, the journalist and longtime advice columnist for Elle, was awarded $5 million in damages in a sexual abuse and defamation case against him.
But what most people (like me) who’ve been following these cases closely may not have known is that these two are pals in real life. Pals who share a lawyer, a common enemy, and a love of… romance novels?
Yes. Mary L. Trump and E. Jean Carroll are collaborating on a romance novel — one they will release in weekly installments on Substack.
Perplexed? I was, too.
The book is called “The Italian Lesson,” and its first chapter is now online. It’s about an American expat with a secret past who falls in love with an Italian vineyard owner named Matteo, and it’s written primarily by Trump (who has a background in fiction writing), with Carroll (who has long doled out romantic advice in her column) and Jennifer Taub, a legal scholar and law professor who typically writes on white collar crime and is acting as editor.
I got the three of them on Zoom — along with Sebastian, Mary’s pet parrot — to find out what the heck was going on. This interview has been edited and condensed.
Ladies, please explain. How did you meet? How did this come to be?
Mary Trump: We all met via DM on Twitter, and we decided to start a knitting group in the pandemic. But it became pretty obvious quickly that knitting was just a pretense — though, of course, some of us knit. (Jennifer was knitting on our call.) There are other people in the group too, and somebody said, like as a joke, “We should write a Hallmark movie!” But nothing came of it, because, well, one, some of us had never seen Hallmark movies, and two, how do you write a screenplay? So I thought, instead of a script, why don’t we write a romance novel?
Do you read romance novels?
Trump: No. But out of all of us, I think it's safe to say that I've written more fiction.
Taub: Hold on, it depends on the definition of “romance.” I mean, I write and read nonfiction mostly about financial shenanigans. But when I was younger, I definitely read some Harlequin romances. I've read some, you know, beach turners. I don't really read the bodice rippers, but I did read Fear of Flying. Does that count?
(Carroll interjected to note that no, the 1973 feminist erotic novel by Erica Jong, whose daughter Molly is another friend of the group’s, does not count.)
E. Jean, as a columnist who often delivered romantic advice, I have to imagine you have read your share of romance?
Carroll: I’ve read stacks, stacks. When I lived in Montana, this was during the heydey of romance writing in the 1970s, my husband would drive into Bozeman because we lived way out in Ennis, and he’d bring them back for me. He’d say, “Well, what titles do you want?” I always said, it doesn't make any difference! If the guy on the cover is ripping her clothes off, bring me the book. That's all. Whoever has less clothes on, just bring 'em to me.
Do you call what you’re writing erotica?
Trump: No, it's not softcore porn.
Taub: We don’t really want to write sex scenes — no, that’s not our thing.
Trump: Look, I love Faulkner, and Toni Morrison, so… I prefer to think of them as sexy, as opposed to sex.
Taub: There will be no “zipless fucks” in our book.
(She’s referring to the term coined in that Erica Jong novel, which soon entered the lexicon as a way to refer to anonymous, no-strings-attached sex.)
And what about politics? Can the three of you really collaborate on something without it being political? (And would you want to?)
Trump: We literally say on the about page it is a no politics zone. That's not why we're here. It’s set in Italy because Italy is my favorite place in the world, outside of New York City and maybe Cape Cod. I think it's safe to say that the main characters are women who become great friends, and there's a piece of all of us in all of them. But as for the plot, it's not political. It’s based on absolutely nothing except what came out of my head.
Fair enough. But is it fair to say that it’s politics — and a loathing for a certain man in politics — that has brought you all together?
Taub: What? What man?
Carroll: Yeah, what man? We have no idea. The only man we care about is Matteo.
You can read the first installment of The Italian Lesson on Substack, where new chapters will be published each week. Also on Substack, you can also find the newsletters of Mary Trump (The Good In Us), E. Jean Carroll (Ask E. Jean) and Jennifer Taub (Money and Gossip).
Thank you, Ms. Jessica! Our zoom together with the dogs, the bird, and the magic black teapots, was a BLAST!!
I'm a bit shocked and intrigued. I have never been interested in romance novels. I made it maybe 70 pages into Fifty Shades of Yuck. I thought, "Is this a man's idea of sex?"
I'll give it a read ladies. Mostly because I have so much respect for all of you. I truly believe I will be excitedly awaiting the next installment.